How fast or slow are these things?

Discussion in 'Engine, Gearbox, Exhaust and Air Intake' started by NickD, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. NickD

    NickD Gold Member

    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Northampton
    Car:
    Lots
    A strange title, but I am looking to guage if these is something amiss with my car.
    I bought my car on a whim as it was sort of abandoned outside work. I bought it as I no longer had a dedicated track capable car and something I could drive to a track in rather than having to trailer.
    Anyway, the engine has been rebuilt, or at least refreshedr so sit is no longer cobsuming oil and leaking coolant. Superficially it seems fine, very peaky, obviously but ubderneath it all there seems little urgency. On track, while the revs build all the way to the red line it is noticeable that there is a distinct lack of much, in track terms, even at 5k. There seems a slight bit more urgency when 6k arrives but it is just really an onward journey the the red line. Even at 5k corner exit it as just painful resulting in feeling a lower gear should be being used.
    I can best show it here.


    These 3 should be of similar performance, especially on track but there was not a chance to keep up. The Integra just walked away under acceleration and Steve in the Peugeot remarked just how easy it was to drive past.
    I kbow the ultultim answer is to get it on a dyno but time and funds preclude that at the moment.
    So the question is are they just slow?
     

  2. Adam93

    Adam93

    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    Car:
    Mini GP2 R56 - R27 next
    Depends what is your expectations and also what power/performance you are used to. The timing on these engines is very sensitive and it’s critical that if / when the cambelt is changed the correct tools are used to ensure it’s done correctly. Also, if the vehicle is running a decat and no map, it creates an even worse flat spot than from factory. Also, a thorough service may also help refresh the car a little.

    I’d say it’s definitely worth getting it on a dyno and seeing the torque and power curves. Depending on where you are based, RS Tuning in Leeds are well respected along with EFI in Runcorn.
     
    NickD likes this.
  3. Big Ben

    Big Ben Winner - POTM February 2018 Paid Member

    Messages:
    5,018
    Location:
    Herts
    Car:
    197
    Try new plugs if they’ve not been done
     
  4. turkie172

    turkie172 Paid Member

    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    N. Ireland
    Car:
    197
    The thing about track days is you don't know what or who your running against in the video they passed a 182 Clio and it passed them back and left them. Another blue 182 Clio was caught and pulled over but could have kept them there. There was some kind of wheelchair car like a Yaris or 500 Fait with a black boot and held it's own. Donnington is a fast cornering circuit so the car has to handle and carry speed through the corner the 308 passed you because your not fast enough onto the straight your line was too tight and I bet the other two cars are all modified suspension and engine the 308 would be mapped and has more horse power anyway from the showroom, as for the Honda I've never seen a standard one ever.
     
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  5. NickD

    NickD Gold Member

    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Northampton
    Car:
    Lots
    I don't expect it to be a rocket, but equally I would not expect to be on the exit curb of a corner at 5k and thinking I need a lower gear to be getting any sort of urge.
    Both the other cars are totally standard, I work with the drivers, the driver in the Peugeot is runningrfirst in class in Club Enduro and I am running second and in fact I am the third driver in this video.

    The Peugeot catches at Swanz as as side from fumbling for the traction control button, that is foot to the floor in 4th and 5th, the same between McLeans and Coppice and the exit from Coppice is moving to the right to let him by.
    I let someone else drive it later on who had a 172 and they were of the same opinion that it felt sluggish and gutless.
     
  6. Doogle

    Doogle Winner - POTM March 2018 Paid Member

    Messages:
    556
    Location:
    Plymouth
    Car:
    BMW e46 330cd
    Theres a few things to look at, generally these cars can bring the VVT in early, such as 4k. Id also question if the dephaser has been done, they dont go like the 172s and 182s but when mine hits VVT in my 119k car is not as noticeable as my mates who only has 60k. The VVT is not as pronounced as it is on a Honda, if that is what you are used to.

    The cam sensor is a relatively cheap and easy swap and people have issues with the car feeling flat.

    These are noticeably heavier than a 172/182, a good 100-150kg and that all adds up. Likewise, the fly by wire throttle I find lacks urgency and makes the car feel a bit lacklustre.

    On a dyno a reasonable one should make 185 at the wheels, if its significantly down as said it will be the cambelt timing.
     
    NickD likes this.
  7. rupe30

    rupe30 Paid Member

    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon
    Car:
    Albi Blue RS197
    Does look a bit slow in the straights to be fair. Would help to see on-board footage. Did you get any lap times?
     
  8. NickD

    NickD Gold Member

    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Northampton
    Car:
    Lots
    Hi Guys, thanks for your comments. It is pretty evident it needs putting on a dyno and looking at. I would estimate at the moment that there is no more than 160phowas but even more so the absolute lack in the upper mid range. It suffered quite a large oil leak from the camshaft oil seals after a rebuild as the seals were actually loose in the outer housings. The timing may not have been put back in place well. Also it has done quite a few miles, so while the engine seems OK, the other "bits" may not be. We will sort it.
     
  9. turkie172

    turkie172 Paid Member

    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    N. Ireland
    Car:
    197
    yea it was late at night so did not want to wake anyone with automatic notifications turn on. I had a 172 Clio and then driving a 197 the power or punch is disappointing you have to remember the power to weight ratio and I checked the other two cars out power you as well as a 172 Clio. The 197 is 200Kg heavier and 29Nm torque to weight less than a 172 Cup that's where the punch is lost so you have to go big balls on the corners to carry speed. So weight loss not stupid stuff like as far as removing stickers to save .05g but sneaky stuff like back seats to make room for spare wheels

    Fast laps site you can search by vehicle and it's power to weight and torque to weight you need to look at, Donnington, Thruxton and Snetterton are power circuits but Knockhill, Oulton Park and Cadwell park you would have a better chance in the corners.

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  10. tombate911

    tombate911 Paid Member

    Messages:
    901
    Car:
    2010 Clio RS200
    From driving on track With Rob a lot in the dc5 my clio was the same speed on the straights till around 100mph when the higher revs of the Honda just let it pull away slightly. Got some videos from snetton somewhere lapping together for a session.
    Out of interest, is this the grey clio you brought down to Club Enduro last weekend at Anglesey?
    I know my mate has back to back tested that dc5 against a clio 200 around spa and the time difference was only around a second.
     
  11. NickD

    NickD Gold Member

    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Northampton
    Car:
    Lots
    Hi Tom,
    Yes, that's the one. Started it yesterday, and now seems to have a bottom end knock :disappointed:.
    Time to find that turbo.
     

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