Meg-Clio Build - Planning Phase

Discussion in 'Projects/Progress Threads' started by PaladinRS4, May 17, 2018.

  1. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

    Messages:
    15
    Car:
    RS4
    Good morning gents, 1st time starting a post here and a bit of introduction. Been reading extensively the last month or so about my next toy-project which is nothing new to this forum really. A bit of background; karting, hill climbs and rally cross used to be my thing for a number of years so myself the stick, the steering wheel and the 3 pedals get along decently. previous worth mentioning car/projects included westfield with hayabusa engine, M3 CSL, a heavily modified track focused 911TT which gave way, due to our first baby, to an equally heavily modified supercharged RS4 B7 avant running currently around 700+ bhp with a vortech s/c and fully customised suspension setup (which is my current car) ...blah blah blah and an utlima evo coupe which will be with me hoping mid-end 2019... all for the twisties...due to the baby I am selling my beloved motorbike (trying to be a slightly more responsible dad) but the bike funds (around 18K-5K for a running clio 3 rs car, 13K for the project +-) will go to this project I have been thinking of the last couple of months...

    I never had a personal powerful fwd car, the place here is filled with modified Golf GTIs/Siroccos and A3s/S3s/Type-Rs and thought of not going like anyone else but trying to be different for the fun of it. The Clio 3 RS (the 197) ticks all the boxes for me as it will be used as a daily small car for me (dont really care about the back seats) the occasional sunday twisties fun when not using the RS4, and as I dont have a current track-toy to drive it will serve this purpose as well....so it has to do a bit of everything well.

    The pillars of the project are the following:
    1. Going with meg 225 engine (cheaper to get i think) but fully forged. Open and forge the engine, rebuilding anything that needs changing. Reading around i saw a company called engine dynamics that have a stage 2 & 3 on forging the engine. Need to get in touch with them to understand the differences as stage 2 is aimed for 400bhp and stage 3 for 600bhp. Any comments on the company or someone else to propose I would greatly appreciate it. being abroad (Greece) makes things slightly more difficult but I have yiannis197 from here who can lend a helping hand when needed (and he suggested me to register here!)
    2. Doing my research I have concluded using the new garret G25-550 turbo
    3. Gearbox (which is my greatest fear) I am thinking to use from a m3rs with lsd [as a side note I will be checking if the dimensions of a dsg gearbox can fit from group vag cars. both gearboxes are transverse and around the same dimensions. Will be doing a check on wednesday putting up on 2 ramps a clio rs and an a3 dsg]
    4. The car will be most probably running with a racing ecu (it was proposed to me to use link) as I am not sure the s3000 will be able to handle sufficiently fueling, and with a boost controller, to regulate pressure and keep around 280-300 bhp for the twisties and 400-450+ for the 3rd-4th gear straight pulls.
    5. Would like to stick within the budget boundaries in principle...

    What should I be careful when I am undertaking this project? As with all my previous projects I want to do it right first time. It may be more expensive at the start, but from my personal experience an expensive start ends up way cheaper down the line.

    Potential Problems I am seeing:
    1. Fuelling
    2. Cooling
    3. Braking, not just the disks/calipers but associated equipment like sevros for example
    4. Weight distribution (probably with half cage it can get to original distribution %)
    5. Torsional stiffness and strengthening of the chassis.
    6. How you would recommend doing thing (specially those that have already done it), and what would you do differently to improve the project build.

    For the fun of it and because I like motorsports (but live in a country that doesnt have this word in its dictionary) and since I also have access to 3d scanning as a 2nd phase I intend to play a bit with the aerodynamics and ventury effect of the car.

    example of modelling we did for the rs4 for the fun of it..
    https://photos.shutterfly.com/story/id/90215268167

    so..thats it..please excuse my lengthy start of thread. everything else will be short and to the point

    thanks,
    Lefteris
     
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  2. ///M

    ///M Gold Member

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    Car:
    R27, ///M CS, Exige V6
    Welcome!

    Well that's quite the intro.

    I'm of no use to you what so ever regarding the engine conversion, but can vouch for the top quality work Engine Dynamics do. Wonderful folks over there from my experience. You could also look at RS Tuning who are equally well regarded, if not more so.

    Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons... have you thought about supercharging as an option?

    Very much looking forward to watching how this all unfolds. It's sounding like quite the project. Especially interested in phase 2!
     
    Sean197 likes this.
  3. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

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    Car:
    RS4
    hey thank you for comments on the 2 companies!

    main issue with supercharging is that you cannot regulate the s/c pressure unless you change the s/c pulley. a fwd car running 400+ would be useless on a track or on a twisty road despite the linear power delivery of the s/c + its been a year+ since i gave away the 911 and I kinda miss the sound of the bov
     
    ///M likes this.
  4. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    Firstly, pics of the RS4 please (shame it's not a B5 but never mind :wink:)

    1. Fuelling
    Full megane 250 return set-up with an uprated fuel pump such as the walbro 255 (which is what RS Tuning use). You could go for a swirl pot set-up, but they're noisy, and RS Tuning didn't run one on their R26R with almost 500bhp.

    2. Cooling
    I found the Clio radiator fine on mine, but when I build another one it'll have the full megane cooling set-up, with the electric coolant pump wired to come on from ignition on. I'd also fit a separate cooler for the turbo - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-...hash=item4af4930280:m:mWPfx17zIDs7uC3yV9zQv5A

    3. Braking, not just the disks/calipers but associated equipment like sevros for example
    Standard servo is fine, as are the calipers. You can go for bigger discs and better pads or even a 6-pot conversion, but there's nothing wrong with the standard brembos.

    4. Weight distribution (probably with half cage it can get to original distribution %)
    No idea. You'd need to get it corner-weighted with fully adjustable suspension.

    5. Torsional stiffness and strengthening of the chassis.
    Roll cage, rear arb, solid mounts, and a lower brace (either aftermarket or cup racer item).

    6. How you would recommend doing thing (specially those that have already done it), and what would you do differently to improve the project build.
    Work out your budget, and then double it for contingencies, simple as that really.
     
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  5. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    oh, and mk3 megane gearbox doesn't fit, so it'll have to be a mk2 gearbox. If you're feeling adventurous you could have a custom bellhousing adapter made and mate any gearbox you like, but I think the money is better spent elsewhere. I'd speak to Paul at RS Tuning and ask what gearbox spec he ran his R26R.

     
    suj likes this.
  6. ///M

    ///M Gold Member

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    R27, ///M CS, Exige V6
    You're welcome. And I understand your point. That's just me wanting to retain the revvy nature of the original engine as much as possible.

    Sounds like you're going all out for big power though. Should be a fun one!
     
  7. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

    Messages:
    15
    Car:
    RS4
    Many thanks Sean.. you built is sitting as a favorite bookmark among the reference builds I am following over the last weeks! great info on 1. 2. Will look it up in more detail. for the rest its okish to make out what is needed.

    on 6 you are spot on. I saw that most of the conversions round about 6-7k. I have opted for 13-14k just in case.
     
    Sean197 likes this.
  8. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

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    Car:
    RS4
    That would be super cool if you could do this! it would help me greatly from a number of headaches. On the subject of gearbox strength are there any tangible results on cryogenesis of materials within the gearbox?
     
  9. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

    Messages:
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    Car:
    RS4
    and for Sean the RS4 ..my 2 mates have an RS4 B5 around 500 bhp and an RS2 avant around 550

    by "bear" as I call it is powered by a stage 1+ (only 2 examples I know of in the world outside USA) vortech V3 Si kit using a G12 operated charge air to liquid cooler. very very efficient for keeping next to ambient the IATs.
    Rs4 sideAsmall.jpg 12857147b46af6e3d39525de16c73880.jpg a6e1a879dbfe869966384671de519eef.jpg 0-02-05-76a8edddd5733bf752fae698087dfb9c538df6ec3c471a18edfb972c793db21d_full.jpg
     
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  10. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    @PaladinRS4 Cooksport (company which ran Josh Cook in the CLio cup series I believe) built a 600bhp+ Megane. The spec was:

    • Garrett GTX35 Turbo with a .82 stainless exhaust housing
    • External Waste Gate
    • Clio 197 Cylinder Head (marginally flowed inlet, fully flowed exhaust ports) Inc. 3 angle valve seats.
    • Trial Cams
    • Megane Block with CP Pistons
    • Manley Rods
    • Uprated Valves
    • Custom Cooksport inlet manifold
    • Clio 197 Throttle body
    • Reverse run intercooler
    • Uprated Radiator
    • Long 750cc Injectors with Cooksport fuel rail
    • Twin Bosch 044 Pumps
    • Cooksport Custom Exhaust Manifold
    • Cooksport Turbo Damper
    • Cooksport Custom boost pipes
    • Standard ECU
    • Greddy Boost Controller

    Standard ecu is fine, a standalone can work but it's a headache getting it to work with the canbus etc.
     
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  11. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    All gorgeous, but that B5 though!

    4.jpg
     
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  12. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
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    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    Just had a quick read, Engine Dynamics apparently do an adapter plate which allows the fitment of a VW 02M gearbox - although it says it allows fitment to the F4R (clio n/a) rather than F4RT engine (megane turbo), so it may be worth enquiring. RS Tuning had a go at fitting a VW 'box but gave up as it wasn't cost effective, and their R26R gearbox was fine with close to 500bhp with matching torque.
     
  13. AmosMoses

    AmosMoses

    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Manchester
    Car:
    R27 F1
    Will be following this one! Sounds bonkers.
     
  14. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

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    Car:
    RS4
    Very interesting spec. Turbo is a bit old and spools very high. My mate with the b5 has also an integralle powered punto gt with a gt35 for dragster purposes and street racing. I opted for the latest g25-550 and thinking about cams to help mid range and help the turbo spool early.

    I will check in the conversion plate with engine dynamics. Who should I be speaking to there?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    Sean197 likes this.
  15. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    not sure who to speak to at Engine Dynamics, all my dealings were with Paul and Speccy at RS Tuning - https://www.rstuning.co.uk/
     
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  16. ///M

    ///M Gold Member

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    Andy. Great guy. Really helpful.
     
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  17. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

    Messages:
    15
    Car:
    RS4
    1.So to sum things up in the motor:
    Two companies can prepare and forge the engine up to my spec; RST and Engine dynamics. Anyone had any experience with cams on the meg motor (again its all about decent spool rpm and not top end power).
    In addition Any idea if RST or ED can source an Engine as well at a decent price or if not, any UK breaker you would recommend to phone up?

    2.Gearbox: scrap my plan for m3rs. m2rs hopefully with more details from RST. As inhave access to CNC making a conversion plate is not an issue if a gearbox can fit.

    3.Clutch? .. I guess something that can hold anything around 50nm? I trust sachs in general. Both my 911 and rs4 have double disk clutch kit with light flywheel rated for 112Nm of torque. What would we use for megane engine??

    4.Wire loom from megane 2 rs obviously but which ecu? Once this is decided we can see who will do the tuning

    If I can conclude on the above 1/3 of the project will be completed. What am I missing from the basics?
     
  18. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    Use a single mass flywheel, I used the engine dynamics one, can't suggest a clutch for your power aims as I only had 278bhp and 285lb/ft so used the r26r item.
    Mk2 engine and gearbox fit straight in. Use 225 wiring loom and any 225 ecu as long as it's a euro4 unit, so from a later model.
    There are also now ready-made exhausts for the conversion - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/401453947269
     
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  19. PaladinRS4

    PaladinRS4 Paid Member

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    Car:
    RS4
    M3rs motor/gearbox fits in the clio straight up like the m2rs?

    If an m3rs gearbox can stand more power it would be also an option to go for m3rs engine. It wouldn't make that much of a difference for the project.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
     
  20. Sean197

    Sean197 RIP Albi :( Moderator

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Car:
    Albi 197T - RIP, MK7 Golf GTD Sports Wagon
    Mk3 engine fits but you have to use the mk2 gearbox. Mk3 gearbox doesn't fit the clio and is also weaker apparently. Mk3 engine is stronger out of the box, the rods and pistons can take up to 360lb/ft of torque whereas the mk2 uses clio rods which can bend at around 300lb/ft.
     
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