CatCam Springs
- Thread starter Kazumz
- Start date
TB Rich
Paid Member
in short; springs control the valves, faster the engine revs faster the valves move so you need stiffer springs to control the valve movement. if the springs aren't stiff enough then you can get valve float and/or valve bounce.
however, you can over spec springs and all you will achieve is power loss because stiffer springs increase drag in the valve train.
what cams you using? because valve springs arn't needed until 403s or wilder. In fact catcam say you don't need valve springs until 404's.
theres also a ton of other questions about what you want to do around rods(and bolts), hydraulic lifters, the valves themselves etc. I've just built a forged engine to take the revs and it aint cheap (or worth it!!!). However I now have my eyes on the R3 solid lifter setup for 8.5k rpm.
however, you can over spec springs and all you will achieve is power loss because stiffer springs increase drag in the valve train.
what cams you using? because valve springs arn't needed until 403s or wilder. In fact catcam say you don't need valve springs until 404's.
theres also a ton of other questions about what you want to do around rods(and bolts), hydraulic lifters, the valves themselves etc. I've just built a forged engine to take the revs and it aint cheap (or worth it!!!). However I now have my eyes on the R3 solid lifter setup for 8.5k rpm.
Stephenvenning
Gold Member
I'd say unless aggressive cams are used there is really no need like Rich has already said. The work and effort to install them, cylinder head off, spring compressor to get the old springs off. Unless your going all out and doing a full engine build there is little point.
TB Rich
Paid Member
Everything I've ever read before (including catcams) normally say 7500 and above needs stiffer springs.
Trying to appy some logic and checking part numbers, the Cup Racer, R3 Access and R3 Maxi all use 77 11 160 277, the Maxi revs to iirc 7800? If someone can check what the standard springs are, I bet it's these.
The Maxi Evo uses a different spring (77 11 162 500), I don't know the revs those things go to, but gotta be 8500 or more.
To try and conclude, I think for longevity 8k is really pushing standard springs. Im sure they'll survive because it looks like they do in Maxi spec - but for how long is the question. Maxi's get frequent rebuilds so probably new springs frequently.
So I would suggest to keep standards for 402 and debatable on 403 equiped cars. Above that and Catcam say 404 and above need them so I def wouldn't go against that.
TB Rich
Paid Member
Haha, no chance mate.
You won't need springs unless you go for big cams, big cams will need pistons for valve clearance. 8k will also mean you need good rods, rod bolts and valves. Besides, the hydraulic lifters will not like you for long at all going to 8k!!
If you want 8000rpm - then to do it reliably you'll need to uprate the top end with mechanical lifters. - You'll be at a £10,000 build then.
You can do a reliable hydraulic lifter build to take 7500-7700rpm for about £6-7000. Or you can just bash in some 402's and springs and rev the **** out of it, but it will only get you bragging rights down the pub and not any power. 402's just are not wild enough to be revving that high.
Ah, so you could do it, but it won't be making power anywhere above 7.5k? No point really then, if I want sound I'll get a civic that revs to 9k, but that's not my style.
Thanks for the insight mate!
TB Rich
Paid Member
Yes you could do it, but it wouldn't be reliable or making power unless the other components are built to match. There is no half measures with this kind of work really, not if you want it doing properly. The most cost effective thing to do woul dbe stick some 402's in and set the limit to 7500. Anything more has so many cost implications frankly it's not worth doing.
For the money of a big build I would put a K20 and JDM LSD box in. I wish I had done that to be fair.
I'm pretty certain that the car revs up to 7.5k anyway? At least, that's what my Rev counter tells me....
I'll probably just go down the turbo route with forged internals. It's pretty cheap in comparison to a high spec NA build and I don't think I'll be competing in any NA competitions with it any time soon.
Is there a benefit going above 402's or, like you said earlier, do you then require different springs? What's the most extreme you can put in there without affecting reliability? I don't really care for comfort.
TB Rich
Paid Member
Yes there is a benefit, more power and more revs. But it comes at a cost, as like I have said already there is no half measures because you need many components once you go beyond 402's. - Not just springs.
At a minimum:
- Pistons - for valve clearance
- Rod bolts - should be obvious
- Rods (a luxury at this stage)
- Valve springs - again obvious
- Valves - standard 2-piece valves are a weak point and going on to 8k you'll want single piece items/ones where the weld isn't right above the valve head
..........and if you want more then its:
- 150mm rods
- Solid lifters
- VVT delete
And if you want more!!!:
- 144mm rods
- pistons to suit
- 84mm overbored block
- Maxi Evo crank
I've not even mentioned when and where you'll want stuff like R3 manifolds, injectors, head work, bigger cams, standalone etc etc!! The above is purely from a getting it to rev safely perspective.
You have to take an overal view of what you want to achieve and how much money you have? If you don't mind turbos then just Meg it.
You could do it cheap, fit 403's, dont bother with springs, pocket the standard pistons. But that's not something I would do.
indeed if your going to do it regularly and have/or is spending a bit on the engine and there is of the standards
will have a margin of safety built in...
mine had the limit upped 350rpm so limited to 7900rpm but it still head butted the limiter - so the standard spring can go 8k - and the ones we have had in at work theres never been a broken springs in fact the only ones we have had have been on vw/audi/seat engines...
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They will Rev to 8k all day long on uprated valves and springs and hydraulic lifters. No worries there.
There's is no point in spending money on it, the spec beyond this is race engine territory. Will you be racing it? I doubt it. So it's pointless for a road car. It's such a waste and a let down in these cars. The drivability will be terrible for a road car and will give you less power low down the further you keep pushing the power and up.
Mine had Schrick cams and everything standard, and pulled hard to 7.8k. Unless your building a race engine there isn't much point. Plonk some cams in, after than your spending mega money per 1bhp. Power isn't everything, it's drivability that matters as well.
There is a reason why no one does this, because the gains are rubbish, and even with the minor increase in power the reality is you won't be much quicker, and a mapped diesel will still be on your tail.
Or buy a civic. Spend 2.5k and have between 250/60bhp
There's is no point in spending money on it, the spec beyond this is race engine territory. Will you be racing it? I doubt it. So it's pointless for a road car. It's such a waste and a let down in these cars. The drivability will be terrible for a road car and will give you less power low down the further you keep pushing the power and up.
Mine had Schrick cams and everything standard, and pulled hard to 7.8k. Unless your building a race engine there isn't much point. Plonk some cams in, after than your spending mega money per 1bhp. Power isn't everything, it's drivability that matters as well.
There is a reason why no one does this, because the gains are rubbish, and even with the minor increase in power the reality is you won't be much quicker, and a mapped diesel will still be on your tail.
Or buy a civic. Spend 2.5k and have between 250/60bhp
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TB Rich
Paid Member
Well I'm sprinting and hill climbing mine in road going production class, hopefully a few events this year with a view to a full season next. The delays on mine are already looking like causing me delays though. So happy to spend the dosh.
They won't rev to 8k all day long on hydraulic lifters, also to be making any worth while power at 8k the ramp angles of the cam will likely be too aggressive for hydraulic lifters.
If I was to build for 8k I'd want mechanical lifters, without question. I've been speaking to a French tuner involved in high end F4R tuning, and for 8k they also highly recommend using titanium retainers too.
They won't rev to 8k all day long on hydraulic lifters, also to be making any worth while power at 8k the ramp angles of the cam will likely be too aggressive for hydraulic lifters.
If I was to build for 8k I'd want mechanical lifters, without question. I've been speaking to a French tuner involved in high end F4R tuning, and for 8k they also highly recommend using titanium retainers too.
If I spend the extra on Schricks or just go for 402's will the rev limiter be okay to go to 7.8k? Obviously as Rich has said previously, reliability becomes an issue. However if there's a little performance to be squeezed out of the top end with a little raise, surely it can't hurt going to 7.8k? If I find that the power drops off, then I'll just keep the rev limit standard.
Raptor6767
Gold Member
Schricks are wilder than the 402's and from 1st hand experience there fine at 7800, mine was supercharged as well and ran fine to 8k. This was verified on my scan gauge. No issues at all.
There are no reliability issues. Rich doesn't actually no this, it's just what he's been told. There are plenty of clios cammed that run to that with no issues whatsoever. The lifters will be fine!
Of course you won't get power at 8k because this is the Rev limit. What car does have power ON the Rev limit? None! Rich's setup won't get power at 8k, it will be sloping off at 7.5k. If you want power at 8k then you need to spend 10k and have it revving to 9000. Dunno what the big fascination with it revving to 8k. Fact is, and proven fact is just a set of cams running a 7800 limit is perfectly safe.
Running anything more for a daily car will be a pain to live with, look at Ben r1's, he spent 10k and squeezed out 225/230 on ITB's, with vvt delete, and lost low down power. So daily it will be worse. It's about finding the balance.
I've said it before millions of times, unless it's a dedicated fun car for track, weekends or racing then it's so pointless. Which is why no one does it! Rich has spent 7 and is already disappointed, and im willing to bet a standard car with schricks will be the same pace or a fraction slower in real terms. I don't blame him for being defensive and commend him for carrying on, I've done it myself. But the outcome is always the same, you wish you didn't bother lol!A standard FD2 will be quicker!
TB Rich
Paid Member
I'm only disappointed with the work carried out, the cams have been set to standard timing marks, when it should have been done properly with a dial gauge to ensure the cams are giving maximum lift at TDC. That is the minimum that should have been done, it wouldn't have been too much to ask for then trying a few things like retarding the exhaust cam to close up the centre line etc either really. Especially when you're spending 4.5k. (the other 1k was on Arrow rods and 1.5k on the manifold and sports cat). Everything is motion now and I should be cracking on to get the power it can produce in the next month.
Not being defensive anywhere am I? Pretty much been offering advice which other than our opinions on the suitablibty of hyrdaulic lifters, I think we are basically usually on the same page. I've said before 7800 is the MAX on hydraulic lifters (in this thread too a few posts above), so thats what you're saying too on the Shricks - 7800. 8000 though is the point you should really be looking at solid lifters and again I say that above a few posts. I don't see how you can dispute needing solids by that point? Because A) its revving the tits of the hyd's!! and B) if you 'need' those revs, and by need I mean actually making power up there, then the profile of the cam will be too aggresive for Hydraulics, that is the the ramp angle and the amount of lift. The max lift is about ~12mm on our Hyrdaulic lifters before issues.
